Ever since the beginning of time, people felt compelled to believe there is a God. They worshiped anything, from cows to fat women (OK maybe that didn't change a lot LOL)...point is, people felt like their life is not safe. They needed to believe that after they die, there's a special place for them to go and have an eternal life with their beloved. They believe that this God knows everything, is everywhere and created everything perfectly...Then someday, reality hits them smack in the forehead and says "hey shithead, guess what, you're on your own!".
The sad reality is that you can pray how much you want, if it has to happen, it's gonna happen!
The path of logic doesn't lead to religion. If you really think about it, religion is probably the most illogical thing you can come up with. You're believing in something that doesn't exist and can never be proven otherwise. The worst part? Religion keeps finding sheep that follow the herd to the righteous path towards salvation (Which by the way also costs you money when you go to praise this so called god, that secretly goes towards the funding of the local priest's new comfy bedroom where he can play monopoly with his young altar boys.)
I strongly believe that in 2009, people should get a clue and start believing in what is right in front of their face and not some spooky invisible man that is praised when something good happens, and excused when bad shit happens.
In the great George Carlin's own words "These kind of actions do not belong in the resume' of a supreme being."
I'll conclude this article with one of my most favorite quotes :
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why does evil exist ?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
The sad reality is that you can pray how much you want, if it has to happen, it's gonna happen!
The path of logic doesn't lead to religion. If you really think about it, religion is probably the most illogical thing you can come up with. You're believing in something that doesn't exist and can never be proven otherwise. The worst part? Religion keeps finding sheep that follow the herd to the righteous path towards salvation (Which by the way also costs you money when you go to praise this so called god, that secretly goes towards the funding of the local priest's new comfy bedroom where he can play monopoly with his young altar boys.)
I strongly believe that in 2009, people should get a clue and start believing in what is right in front of their face and not some spooky invisible man that is praised when something good happens, and excused when bad shit happens.
In the great George Carlin's own words "These kind of actions do not belong in the resume' of a supreme being."
I'll conclude this article with one of my most favorite quotes :
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then why does evil exist ?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus
43 comments:
So just as I said I would, here's the last thing I posted in the forum we were both debating in:
"I feel as though if we were to try and have civil debates on the subject matter that we'd end up having very circular discussions trying to figure out what the other person is actually saying (which I'm not opposed to it just seems like we are both making too many assumptions about the other.) First off I never thought you were explicitly were talking about Jesus, but in all fairness this discussion is about whether Jesus is religion. Anyways, you were talking about religion, and unless you have a specific belief structure in mind that is an incredibly huge blanket statement which is unfair to make. So I figured it was fair to assume your were talking about some sort of Christian religion.
Second, the church you are talking about is the Catholic Church, I am protestant, and while I'm not personally against the Catholics my faith was spawned from people saying the Catholics don't necessarily have everything as right as it could be. My church runs a number of missions and nearly all of their missions run in the red every year... our church is actually going further and further into the hole every year through their outreach. Our church can't actually afford to keep their church adequately staffed.
Third, I didn't say I would be living in poverty, I said I'd be living pretty close to a poverty line which is an actual number that if you make less then the gov't considers you to be in poverty and if you're above the line you are considered to not be in poverty. I agree I'm going to be far better off than the people in Africa you mentioned but I never said "have pity for me for I shall be poor." I said my income is still going to put my pretty close to this hypothetical line.
And again you seem to have this impression that I am jailed by my faith. I assure you I am not. I have had numerous discussions with my friends about my how I view Hell and everytime I tell him that picturing Hell as this thing to fear is a dangerous thing to do theologically, We should not be Christian because we fear hell we should be Christian because we love Christ and if you believe out of fear I don't think you have true faith."
Thanks for your comment and nice to hear from you.
First of all, my article was targeted at the idea of religion, without pin-pointing any specific ones.
You say you are protestant, and said that Catholics don't have everything as right as it could be and I couldn't agree more, however, saying that the protestants are any better is a bit far fetched.
Throughout history, religion has dictated how lives should be lived. Every religion gives its followers a set of rules (Probably you would prefer using the word guidelines since you're looking at it from the other side of the coin), and unless you follow them, they scare you with the idea of some sort of hell.
Some people actually do not know any better, they are just brainwashed by their also brainwashed parents and just grow up following every word blindly. However the reality is grim. There have been more killings in the name of God than for any other reason. In Rwanda, numerous priests and nuns helped in the mass killing of over 7,000 people. The crusades, the bombings in Ireland, Muslims. All done by blind people to the idea of a god. How many people did Atheists kill? who knows, certainly they killed for other reasons though not religion/god. Atheists reason things out, not strap themselves in C4 and blow up a train station in the name of Allah.
The sooner the world gets rid of religion (which is sadly far fetched and practically impossible), the better the world will be. No one needs anything to live a happy good life, except his own good will.
You couldn't have it more wrong (at least in my case) never once growing up was I taught "do this or you'll goto hell" that is a horrible unhealthy way to think about religion. In my upbringing I was taught about this fellow named Jesus, who he was and how the things he wanted us to do would inevitably lead to good things. Essentially I was taught to love Christ, not fear hell. And I can't say I necessarily agree with people who preach those fire and brimstone sermons. I just think believing out of fear is a horrible horrible thing to do and anyone who does believe out of fear does not have true faith.
Now I know a number of people have killed in the name of God, but that's one of the things protestants (or at least my branch of protestants) had an issue with. We believe that Jesus taught non-violent resistance (which if you know the context of a lot of his sayings you quickly realize he was really gunning for the whole non-violent resistance thing.) I'm not 100% sure but I think my faith was more or less the cause behind the army having the conscientious objector option. Which I actually have ancestors who went into hiding because even that was too involved in the war for their beliefs.
Now I don't know how the world would be better without Religion. This sense of mystery and wonder would be gone, the world would be incredibly boring, Not just if Christianity was gone but all religion... Could you imagine going to china and having not Buddhist temples, like the big ones that became icons of the area, to go experience? This world just wouldn't be fun if there was no religion to draw culture out of. And I'm not knocking you as a person but I think a lot of those third world countries would more or less be on their own without programs like MCC, CPT and MDS. (yes I know all of those come from a very specific branch of religion but I have heard very little about what the Atheists are doing for this world, and that may be because of who I hang around but until someone shows me the atheist alternative I don't know how the world would be better off without us)
You're totally looking at this from the wrong perspective my friend. It's not a matter wether we go about without having what we now know as religion. There are lot of different kind of religions and you picked the wrong one as an example. Buddhists do not believe in god, they actually believe that religion as we know it was created out of fear of dying. A quote from The Buddha preachings :
"Gripped by fear men go to the sacred mountains,
sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines".
The Buddha inspired his followers to believe in what they can see and touch and what is keeping them alive and embrace life. As you can see, that is nothing close to what Christians, Muslims, Jews etc. believe in, They all preach about someone they themselves never even seen. Fine, it's maybe called Christianity for a reason..Christ existed, he was a good man, no doubt there but still preached that there is someone else that no one will ever see unless we die...isn't that kind of illogical ? Don't take me wrong...their marketing is brilliant but hey, would you give me money just because I tell you to give me money and I'll send you a car ? (It's a stupid analogy I know). In my mind, believing in something that cannot be proven unless you're dead (which of course it's then too late) is just as illogical.
And you are wrong as well about those 3rd world countries. There are many good people which you don't hear of on the local news that dedicate their lives into helping these people just because they are good people, not because they're doing it for salvation! (Not to mention if we didn't give money to the church to help these poor people in the first place, the church wouldn't help them out of its own pocket)
Recently the Vatican announced that it's going to spend 660Million to turn a nation of just 900 people into the first solar powered nation...come on now...if those brochures are real that with $2 you can feed a kid in Africa for a week, then with 660million you feed 6.3 million people for a whole year, and they're worrying about solar energy for 900 people?
I never said they did believe in God (although they do have some idea of a Lord)... you said the world would be better off without religion... Bhuddism is a religion... Bhuddism is a beautiful religion that I'd hate to not have the culture that it goes along with. Also if you look at the two people there are a lot of parallels you can draw between Buddha and Jesus, like for example:
For God so loved the world that the gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed God did not sens the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order the the world might be saved through him.
John 3:16-17
A certain brahmin said to the Lord: "Reverend Gautama, it is as if a man were to seize someone by the hair who had stumbled and was falling into a pit, and to set him on the firm ground - just so, i, who was falling into the pit, have been saved by you!
Digha Nikaya 12.78
Now I don't know what you believe but I going to go out on a limb and say it's likely equally as illogical and equally as difficult to back up.
Now I don't deny there are plenty of atheists doing good in third world countries and places that need help but you can only do so much as an individual. It sounds like you probably have something against institutions but they can do what individuals cannot accomplish on their own.
One of Mennonite Disaster Service current projects is rebuilding houses in New Orleans. As of this date they have started 158 houses and completed 149 of them. The currently have 1764 VOLUNTEERS on the project and they are rebuilding these houses for the people who lost their homes not real-estate companies. Now no offense to these good people, but do you honestly think they could organize that kind of a project without an institution backing them... and as I've said I have yet to see such an institution from atheists.
Also there's more to helping the third world than simply feeding them. granted that would be a good boost and while I think we need to be striving towards sustainable living I do agree the Catholic Church should be doing more for the third world. But simply giving them food does not help them, another MCC project involves raising money to purchase livestock and then send out people to teach these impoverished people how they can use this livestock be it a sheep, a pig or a cow to create food and income to live live off of. It is a project meant to empower them to take their lives back into their own hands and not have them all rely on us for food, which I think is a very important thing to do.
My beliefs are far more than illogical, they actually exist. I believe in myself, I believe in things that are tangible and I believe in things that don't contradict themselves.
I believe in things that do not use scare tactics to do their bids. I certainly do not believe that if I don't follow those sacred 10 commandments to the letter, there's a nice place where I will suffer for eternity...but god loves me!
The reason you don't hear about atheists helping others is because they don't form part of any group, they're just themselves. 3 of the 4 biggest American philanthropists are atheists. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Andrew Carnegie which together have given the world much more money that the church. Just last month The Gates foundation gave $48 Million to support farmers in Africa to lift themselves out of poverty not to mention in 5 years they gave over $100 Million to support these people. Run by a self proclaimed atheist.
http://www.celebatheists.com/index.php?title=Category:Atheist Look at that list, and tell me which names you see on the news everyday doing charity work. Many people on that list do charity work, and when they do it, since they're rich, they do it big time! They don't need organizations, or help from someone else. But you don't get to know that they're Atheists in the news. I hope that opened up your mind about Atheists my friend.
K, you still seem to have this notion of hell and how all of what i believe is spawned out of fear... so let me try and explain this from a very theological standpoint. The notion of hell is more or less non existent, the word that we have mistranslated from the Hebrew language into hell actually means something quite different... it basically means nothing it means what you think will happen to everyone when they die... that was the old testament view of hell, nothingness. as near as I can tell hell is a new testament idea and even in the new testament it is mentioned a sum total of 13 times... that means in the entire bible hell is mentioned 13 times... that is 13 words in a book of well over 1500 pages. Hell is not the focus of Christianity and people who make it so are not reading the bible in it's entirety. So not following the 10 commandments as the Jewish of the Old Testament understood it did not lead to what we know as hell. And you seem to be pussy footing around what you actually believe in because most of those sound like things I too would believe in.
And again I say throwing money at problems does not solve them... it makes people reliant on us and that is far from doing good for them. It takes real people out there with the 3rd world people to help the problem. And I have never seen any of those rich people engross themselves within a community and build relations with these people in an effort to help them out of their poverty.
13 times is 13 times too many! Whether hell is a metaphor or not, it still spawns fear in people. Go explain that to a kid getting his first communion that hell is not real see what expression he gives you. All you seem to do is run around the idea that religion is there to guide you, not control you when in fact you don't even realize it that by defending it so aggressively, you're addicted to it.
Throwing money at problems doesn't entirely solve the problem and I never said it does. I was just trying to show you that no, you do not have to be a Catholic or Buddhist or whatever to do some good in the world. The thing that helped the world develop most was not the church, it wasn't religion, it was science (which by the way, the thing that's making whatever you're replying to me from -Electricity- was invented by an Atheist as well.) What I'm trying to say is this, Atheists don't get any credit because they're atheists, they get credit because of their work. No one cares what they believe (or don't believe) in. Just because, as you said, you personally never heard of an atheist that did any good, doesn't mean that they don't. In fact, they do much more than the Church and the simple fact that you don't know just proves my point that religion, whichever it may be, is just a blindfold to let people think, it's the only way!
Now we could go on an on about this subject. I'm not gonna convince you to become an Atheist just are you're not gonna convince me to become religious. What I was trying to prove in my disccusion is that Atheists shaped and are still shaping the world and no one cares that they're Atheists, but just because a nun goes to help kids in Africa, her act is automatically better than the one done by Mr.X (Who "secretly" does not believe in god).
What do you personally believe will happen to you after you die ?
Not going to lie, the main reason I've started debating theology online is to keep my mind active and thinking critically so that when I return to school in the fall I won't have as far to go when the assignments start coming out. Although I do enjoy explaining my beliefs to others (and I'm not trying to convert you but rather provide some insight into what I believe)
Actually, I hate to burst you bubble but biology which is where more or less all science spawns from was created by monks attempting to better understand God's creation... Sorry but science is actually a Christian creation. We're on these computers because of Christianity. And I never said these individuals don't do good, but I don't think that without some kind of organization in the background making sure shit gets done, you are not going to make nearly the size of impact that you need to make in order to help solve the problem. Individuals is not the issue here, I know there are plenty of individuals from all faiths who help out. But until you give me an actual Atheist organization that is doing more than just throwing money at problems I don't think this world would be better off without us (in that regard).
As for what I personally believe will happen to me when I die... I honestly don't know, and I honestly don't care. I think if I see heaven it will be because I've created it here on earth (and there is plenty of theology to back the idea that heaven will come only once we've created it here on earth)... not to say there isn't anything beyond, I'd like to think that there is, but I honestly have no idea what lies beyond and I don't really feel like spending time stressing over it. so do with that what you will... I'm guessing that is not the response you were expecting.
(Also I thoroughly enjoy a good debate, we could be debating a topic like bunnies and if I had anything to say on the subject I'd likely be arguing just a vigorously... Debate is an activity and a fun one at that)
To the contrary man, that is exactly the answer I was expecting. Someone who would like to believe it's not the end yet even for such a devout soon to be priest is hard to believe.
And you're not bursting any bubbles, Christians actually believed that science is a sin because you're trying to find ways to question god's will..get your facts right.
Also one thing that really shocked me when growing up, is how brutally abusive and downright sick the church was.
Tell me if the following is a track record fit to follow (And I'm sure you're gonna say, that's the past...not everyone is like that)
This a list I dug up of the punishments the church gave to who ever sinned :
Pride - Broken on the wheel
Envy - Put in freezing water
Gluttony - Forced to eat rats, toads, and snakes
Lust - Smothered in fire and brimstone
Anger - Dismembered alive
Greed - Put in cauldrons of boiling oil
Sloth - Thrown in snake pits
This is also very Christian-like :
Early Popes also indulged in group sex parties. Pope Leo I was described as a sadistic torturer, child Pope Benedict IX was alleged to throw wild bisexual orgies and was described as a “Demon from hell in the guise of a priest” and Pope John XII was such a womaniser it was said monks believed he had introduced sins “Unknown since the beginning of the world”.
And most recently all these cases against priests being sexually active with young boys certainly doesn't fuel my fire to become a christian or even trust a priest.
It makes me sick to my stomach, that the above is actually all forgotten of, or put under the carpet, or disregarded as that's old history, and that we should only focus on how it is today. History, my friend, is what we need to look at when it comes to religion because that's what started it all. The fear of hell, the fear that if you sin, you're gonna end up dismembered. Yes it did tone down of course, but the whole idea hasn't changed from 2000 years ago till today which is believe, don't sin or you'll pay for it when you die.
And this idea of it's not about hell but its about being in love with Jesus, i really do not get it, yes ok, you like the dude, that doesn't mean you have to blindly follow his every word. After all he wasn't perfect, he too raged at people.
As you well said before, we're circling around these points and we'll never find a common ground coz we're both at the opposite sides of the spectrum.
K, Just to clarify, I'm not becoming a priest, I'm getting a degree in biblical and theological studies. What I do with that degree is yet to be seen, for all I know I could become a historical theologian... unlikely but possible. At the moment it is looking like I may dabble in youth ministry for a bit, and Mennos don't have priests, we have pastors (you may not see the difference but I think it's an important distinction to make)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Mendel read that, even the first little blurb... I did have my facts straight, you're the mistaken one.
And it seems like you are again grouping me in with anything bad that has happened ever in the church... I agree those things were horrible and should never have happened. There is a reason why protestants broke away from that tradition, it wasn't all simply because king henry the whatever wanted to get a divorce. I do agree that history is important and that is why I have taken an number of courses on things like Anabaptist Beginnings and the crusades and so forth. But as you so rightly assumed I'd think, we have learned from our mistakes and things indeed are different these days (kind of... I mean we're still going to war and what not but now there are actually Christians stepping out and saying "no, this is actually a very wrong thing to do".
Now I also agree we are doing a lot of circling but it's not entirely because we are from opposite sides of the fence, it is because you keep bunching me in with this very narrow view of what you've been brought up to believe encompasses all of Christianity. If you want to know where I'm coming from read some Anabaptist and Liberal Mennonite theology (Walter Wink and John Howard Yoder are always good theologians, while I don't always agree with all their reasoning, the theology is pretty sound (not airtight, but pretty sound). If I had to recommend one from each it would probably be The Powers that Be by Wink and the Politics of Jesus by Yoder.)... It's not going to be exactly the same as what I believe but it will be a heck of a lot closer than the idea you have of me right now. I'm sure once you quit bunching me into this narrow view of Christianity that the debate will move forward. (And I know Yoder slept with one of his students, you don't need to throw that in my face... the things he has to say about theology is still pretty good and he was punished for that when the University let him go.)
That being said I still don't expect to ever see eye to eye with you even after you have learned a little bit about what I believe, but hopefully I can make your view on Christianity a little less dark and theologically unsound. And as I've said earlier... I enjoy debating so I'm up for keeping this thing going as long as you are.
And I'm not blindly following his every word, I'm doing deep theological exegesis to try and figure out exactly what it is he was trying to say. Example: Matthew 5:38-42, what do you think that passage is trying to tell followers of Christ to do?
When I said get your facts straight, I implied (Sorry I thought it was obvious) that you were wrong in saying that science was invented by Christians. As you put it "Sorry but science is actually a Christian creation. We're on these computers because of Christianity."
And that, is false, Science was not invented by some 1800 Priest...So before that no one did anything ? Aristotle, Bacon, Galileo. All three of them are penned down as being the fathers of science, and this Mendel is no where to be found on that list. That just shows that whatever happened, (since you're mentioning my upbringing) you were brought up to tie everything to the church, religion and god.
And just for the record, who invented electricity was an atheist and who invented the first computer was brought up christian, even applied to become a priest until the church rejected him for babbling into science. So again, Christians didn't invent electricity, computers or even worse, science.
And since you are mentioning my upbringing, well here goes, I'm 28, and i was baptized (at Age 0 of course against my will). I live in a 99% Christian country where these scam-artists have their hand in everything. I was raised Roman Catholic. I attended catechism classes for several years and I was also an altar boy for a year. So what the hell happened you might say ? Well, my brain started functioning properly at age 12! I Started questioning things and realized, that these people that are teaching me how to live my own life, are more messed up than myself!
Now you keep mentioning and disassociating yourselves from Catholics saying you practice protestantism. Thing is, you act like protestantism doesn't have anything to smell under it's armpit. At least the Catholic church stopped the killings, Protestantism is still going at it! And if you're branching out even from protestantism, then basically you're doing nothing different that what I'm doing...nitpicking whatever it is that you find good in something and sticking with that instead of associating yourself with one kind in particular. The only difference is that I don't believe in god (But still live a good life), and don't believe neither in heaven nor hell. Besides that, I don't have to be religious, or love Jesus, or believe in god to know that murdering someone is wrong, stealing from someone is wrong.
I don't believe in god simply because the world is way too fucked up for such a self-described lover of life to let it all burn down like this. Yes, we are doing it, but certainly your god isn't lifting a finger either. And please don't give me the usual "but he lets us live our own life in liberty" coz that's just bullshit. That's an excuse that religious people give instead of saying "Yeah shit happens". When something good happens, praise god, but when something bad happens, god is nowhere to be mentioned! Convenient how most of these religions are all based on things that have no meaning and cannot be proven wrong)
Well I guess it all depends on how you view science, if you think computers were created through means of physics thats your stance to hold, but i'm pretty sure there's a little more chemistry going on there than there is physics (also Galileo... wasn't he a Catholic? And didn't Bacon write the Opus Majus which at some point argued that theology is what all science is built off of?)
The fact that you tried to associate me with protestant killings shows you did not look into Mennonite theology at all as I recommended due to the fact that the Mennonite faith believes in pacifism, and killing or even harming anyone physically is wrong. Now certain Mennonites take that more seriously than others but I doubt you'd find a lot of Mennonites (if any) ok with killing another person.
Now you can call it nitpicking at the good but I've done a lot of reading and have been tweaking my faith constantly based on my studies. So call it nitpicking if you will I call it educating.
Now I don't pretend to know why God does the things he does or what God influences and what he does not, but if you don't want that same old story here's a new one. Let me bring you back to the theology that heaven will come once we have created it here on earth, it is all in our hands, bad stuff happens because we have not yet achieved heaven on earth good stuff happens as we work towards it. Not sure how much of that theology I agree with but I do think striving to create a heaven on earth is a good thing.
Now you can say my faith has no meaning, which I'd horribly disagree with, but that's besides the point. What makes what you believe in any more meaningful, or are you the type who thinks everything is void of meaning and it's pointless trying to find it?
Sorry, I just realized those dudes did dabble in Chemistry a little... but my other points still stand.
Yes Galileo was indeed a catholic but if you look closely at his story, he was persecuted by the church for saying that the earth revolved around the sun. Copernicus was also persecuted for voicing his thoughts about science. Christians in history tortured for even trying to mention anything about the nature of the stars. So no, Christianity did not embrace science until "recently".
And yes, I did take a look at Mennonites and fine, this specific group detached themselves from what I said above, but, I never questioned YOUR faith, I questioned Religions and God.
Tweaking faith however you seem fit at the moment is good and all but you're still revolving everything about an idea that doesn't exist. God! God didn't create you, nature did! What created nature ? Evolution! What created the first spark ? I cannot explain it as much as you cannot explain god. What I know is that evolution and science disprove the existence of god every single day.
And if as you said "heaven will come once we have created it here on earth, it is all in our hands"...then I'm sorry to break it you man but no one will ever see heaven then coz this world is becoming more wicked by the second!
I'm not saying your faith has no meaning, you chose to believe what you want just as anyone else however somewhere between a person being born and believing in something that cannot be felt the affect of, there's a huge gap in logic. To me, believing in god is no less ridiculous than believing in the Easter bunny!
What are you talking about Christianity not embracing science? Did Galileo not embrace science is that what you are saying? Look, just because people in the church don't always agree with each other that does not mean the background of these scientists or philosophers or whatever you want to call them should be thrown out the window. Science was created by people who truly cared about trying to explore God's creation here on earth, and just because they were chastised for that is no reason to say it was not created out of Christianity.
Now I know you did not question my faith, but as you said you questioned Religion... my faith falls into the category of Religion and believes in this one called God... you can't question something only until someone starts explaining their religion and then say "ya well that's not the kind of religion that I'm talking about." Either pinpoint the specific religions you have issues with or don't make blanket statements.
Now that I've got that out of the way, what makes you think that evolution and science disprove God? have you ever read Genesis 1? First there was a dark void and then gradually the earth and universe began to develop and take shape... sure sounds an awful lot like the Big Bang Theory don't you think?
Now I know this probably sounds ludicrous to you but I have felt God in my life. It's not a huge jump for me to believe in God at all. And I hope that through this discourse you have seen or will see that I do try to come at things from a critical and logical perspective.
Also, interesting side note. The reason we have an Easter Bunny is because in the early days of Christianity we generally tried to have our religious events fall on the same days as pagan events as a means of evangelizing and the pagan event that easter happened to fall on was a fertility festival... and I don't think it'd be too hard to guess what the mascot of that festival was. But that really has nothing to do with this debate, just thought it was a fun factoid.
I am definitely not saying that Galileo didn't embrace science. I just told you that he's one of the fathers of science, how in the hell did you make that leap ? What I'm trying to tell you is that the Church, as an institution did NOT approve of science and actually persecuted anyone that did!
As I see it, the whole idea of religion is all based around an idea which cannot be proven, so how does religion expect me to take it seriously.
I fully realize that you called him a father of science, I wasn't implying you didn't think that I was more so trying to point out how ludicrous your viewpoint on that specific point was (which clearly worked since you have now made the distinction between Christianity and the Church as an institution.)
And Atheism is based on something equally as unprovable, the difference is we have an explanation for what you cannot prove... That spark was caused by God as I see it. So how do you expect me to be able to take seriously what you are saying when you have just as much trouble explaining it (if not more because I have God as that one thing that allows me to explain what you cannot.)
"I have God as that one thing that allows me to explain what you cannot." ... Sorry but if you're using God as the means to explain things when you cannot prove he even exists, the foundation for your reasoning is more in trouble than a paper boat in rough sea.
I have an explanation as to how I got here...Evolution (Which is proven). Your explanation doesn't hold coz it's simply not proven...Sorry but that's how I feel. Unless you bring me solid proof that god exists, that won't change. It would be pointless and simply ridiculous for me to follow any type of religion based on something that doesn't exist.
I believe in evolution too... and based one what you said it sounds like we have very similar ideas to how we got here. I'm not an idiot, I have seen the evidence I have seen fossils of trilobites develop shells to protect themselves as predators entered the scene. The seven day creationists (which is what I assume you think I am based on your comments of evolution) have not really read the bible and understood its history. So near as I can tell we both believe in evolution and we both believe this universe started from a tiny little spark the only difference is I can explain the spark and you can't. Therefor my theory towards life has been proven just as far as yours has. I've just added a little extra mystery to the equation but either way just as much of what I believe has been proven as what you believe.
Sorry, but you're saying that you can explain that little spark and I cannot... With all due respect, IF the explanation is GOD, then explain that one, because as far as I'm concerned your explanation might have involved Bigfoot..it's just as unproven!
See, here's the thing, until you can explain that one I don't have to... Now if you really want you can make it your life goal to explain The Big Bang theory in such a way that people cannot in any way shape or form fit God into the equation, go for it, I'm not about to stop you. But as it stands now Science has not explained everything and I personally don't think it ever will.
And for someone who loves science so much you just put a pretty big limitation on it. You realize you just said (or at least what it sounded like you just said to me) was: I don't care what you think, out of all the millions upon millions of species that have yet to be discovered and out of the massive quantities of unexplored rain-forests in places like the Congo science will never find a creature in any way resembling bigfoot. Now I have yet to see a bigfoot, but I'm not about to say science cannot discover it, if it's there an explorer will come across it sooner or later. But when you start to say bigfoot doesn't exist! You're not attacking me anymore you're attacking the trust you have in sciences abilities.
Now I don't know how many theories of evolution there are out there but if I have to explain exactly how the microbes developed after each of the two snowball earth events, and what catalysts were in place to encourage cell growth which lead up to the first organic matter that eventually became the first fish, and so on and so forth till you get to us... It leads me to wonder just how much you actually know about evolution.
Well yes, I would compare god to bigfoot, the lockness monster and the lizart people that live beneath the eart and kidnap people. Why ? because they're all ridiculously stupid ideas that people have come up with either because they're bored, scared or possibly dillusional.
Whoever came up with the idea of a god might have been all three of those. None of those have been proven. It's really convientent explaining everything with god, but the sad reality is that you don't know if it exists so how can you use it as an explanation ? Just because you believe in it doesn't make it real! There are people who believe they are Napoleon Bonaparte, but that doesn't make it true does it ?
You know what's a ridiculous stupid idea... the platypus, that animal makes no sense, and yet it exists. The only difference is we've actually discovered that one and now know for sure that it exists (but imagine the looks on the faces of the first people who saw that one.)
Now the reason I can use God as an explanation is because you've got nothing better. And until you come up with something better there's still going to be that gap in your logic. You've chosen to fill the gap with nothing and I've chosen to fill it with God. Either way not knowing yet is not a better explanation. If you find a better explanation let me know, but until then what you believe will be just as faith based as what I believe.
To prove the existance of an entity that an organized religeon is based upon would negate faith, the necessary ingredient. If god could be proven to exist, he/she would be on the Entertainment channel with Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. If only, at least then I could change the channel instead of having it shoved down my throat by the general populace. I'm sure they don't realize it but every time someone says something like "have a blessed day" or "god bless your for (doing that nice thing for me)" it takes the power out of my hands as a person that is trying to do good things and puts it into the hands of a story book character.
I could care less what you believe in. worship the flying spaghetti monster if you want, but in everyday life, keep it to yourself and the people in your church group please, thanks.
Great reasoning, So you use god because i chose to believe he doesn't exist. Sorry but the irony in that just shines through. Basically you're calling my bullshit with even more bullshit. At least I don't bite off more than I can chew. I believe in what's tangible and proven. You believe in something that someone else told you it really exists. You cannot prove it, no one can. Sorry.
kevy: this debate spawned on a forum elsewhere and I was encouraged to continue it here by Necrospasm... If you don't like hearing about it blame him. (also I didn't ask him to prove God I challenged him to disprove him)
Necrospasm: you keep saying you believe in the tangible but you have not yet explained exactly what that tangible is and whenever I try to explain what it is I think you believe you just kind of glaze over it and don't give me any sort of confirmations or denials.
All you say is "I believe in the Proven" ignoring that the cause of the Big Bang is unproven.
You don't back up any of what you believe you only attack what I believe. One of my friends is an Atheist and his debates actually engage me. Why? because he has a background in post-modern philosophy, he has read the bible and has at least a basic understanding of what it's saying. He is genuinely interested in educating himself just as I am although we have chosen different ways in which to educate ourselves. He has taken courses in theology and actually attempts to understand where I'm coming from. We come at it like intellectuals and I'm not afraid to drop names when I'm debating with him because I know he has likely read at least parts if Discipline and Punish by Michel Foucault. And no offense to you but based on what you have said about atheism you don't strike me as someone who has done a whole lot of reading on the subject... you strike me as someone who one day was introduced to metal and like a confused little puppy looking for something to rebel with grabbed a hold and hung onto every word these artists fed you without going out and doing the research for yourself. Now if you want to change this opinion I have of you go for it. I'm not saying that this is necessarily the type of person you are, I'm just saying this is how you have presented yourself to me up to this moment in time.
For someone as 'intellectual' and 'educated' as yourself not to know that the big bang theory was actually proven 2 years ago is beyond me.
Here's a link to EDUCATE yourself! http://collegerelations.vassar.edu/2007/2486/
The guy even won a Nobel prize for proving it. Now it's YOUR turn to prove god !
Saying that I do not back up what I believe in is also moronic. Why ? Look up the word Atheist and tell me where it tells you that WE BELIEVE! ...Thats exactly the bloody point. WE DON'T BELIEVE. Therefor i have no shit to back up!
Also to label me as just some Metalhead that was fed this belief that god doesn't exist is also very ignorant. If anything (so I educate you on something else since we're at it, if i let the metal I listen to affect my religous beliefs i would probably have ended up being a satanist.) And the closest kind of music that I can thing of that would represent atheism would be punk.
Regarding the arguments you have with your friend, I may not have studied theology but I was brought up Christian, in a Christian country, was an altar boy and attended catechism for many years and read most of the bible (I had to), so yeah, i do have a basic grasp of it. My atheism is not based on a rebellious life style at all. It's just that i'm a very harsh realist. And quite frankly, you preach a lot that your religion is so kind and understanding, yet you're here not accepting my lack of faith and trying to discredit me by calling me uneducated and a confused little puppy. Yep, very Christian like indeed, your way, or the highway... Come to think of it, apparently your religion didn't change much from the torture days after all, its just less brutal but equally as intolerant!
K, I'm sorry if I've come across as unkind in my evaluation of your lack of faith... I'm used to debating with people who can discern when I'm saying something just to get a rise, when playing devils advocate, when I'm being serious, when I'm just having a little fun with the subject matter and when I'm making a joke to keep the debate from getting too serious... It was wrong of me to assume you knew the intent behind all my words. Call me out on it if it happens again but I'll try and be clearer from now on.
Now I read that little article and near as I can tell all it said is that there was a Big Bang (which I have always believed in) not what caused the Big Bang which is what I've been asking for this whole time.
And you still have to believe in certain things... If you believe in every scientific theory ever you believe that Global Warming will lead to a hellish future that will be incredible hot, arid and desert like and that Global Warming will lead us into the next Snowball Earth event and that Global Warming is only having minimal effects on our climate and all the warming is purely natural (and that's not even all of them). It can't be all three of those. Just because you don't believe in a God that does not mean that your life is completely void of belief. Scientific theories contradict each other all the time and if you truly are a man of science you have to use your own discernment to decide which scientist you are going to believe.
And no offense to your upbringing but I was brought up in a church, I took Catechism, I listened to much of what my pastor had to say... I learned more in one year of University than I ever did in my entire life as a Christian up to that point. I'm not saying you need to do the same but if you're going to be so animately against something it wouldn't hurt you to read some upper level theology and philosophy just to see exactly what it is that you hate/love (I can give you a list of authors to check out if you like and I can guarantee you they won't all be Christian because I think Post-Modern Philosophy is essential both to understanding Christianity and Atheism.
Also I'm seriously hoping you get most of your atheism for punk bands like Bad Religion cause if you're listening to bands like NoFX they have a very unsound idea of religion (whenever I want a good laugh I just throw in wolves in wolves clothing, if you have any knowledge on the subject matter that is just a hilarious album. It almost sounds like a young child trying to comprehend the books their brother brought back from the community college without the mental capacity to do so). Greg Graffin however... I can respect his views... Can't say I agree with them but I can see where he is coming from and he at least has the knowledge to back up his beliefs (although for the record Greg Graffin is a naturalist, not an Atheist... it's not a huge difference but enough of one, he still doesn't believe in God and I'm assuming that's all that matters to you)
And since you got Greg Graffin on my mind here's a nice little quote from a discourse he had with Preston Jones (the entire debate is published if you are at all interested, the book is called "Is belief in God Good, Bad or Irrelevant?") But anyways here's something Preston said in that debate with Graffin (and just as Graffin saw the humor in it I hope you will to.)
"it's hard to see why one would spend one's time hating something that doesn't exist. (Maybe the hatred for God atheists feel is a proof of God's existence.)" to which Greg responded "It would be a great trick by God,..."
For someone who lives in book you sure do a lot of assumptions. You assumed again that I listen to punk. I don't! I listen to Death, Black and Grindcore Metal.
I don't feel hatred for god. I feel hatred for the church. Stop going around the subject. I do NOT believe in god. Don't care to believe in god. NOT gonna believe in god. Why I feel hatred for the church ? Read the avalanche of posts above this one, squeeze all the church references and you'll end up with a control-freak, torture and abusing maniacs hiding behind an idea to control people by filling their void and life questions with random senseless bullshit.
This whole superiority complex that you have about your religion, your god, and your studies on the subject is far more than appealing and with you saying this "And no offense to your upbringing but I was brought up in a church, I took Catechism, I listened to much of what my pastor had to say". That confirms you're one of the mindless herd of sheep. Just because you can read a book, doesn't mean you can think for yourself. If you thought for yourself, you would realize, hey, this god story this priest is trying to force feed me doesn't make any sense. How is he trying to make me believe there's someone, someone who has a watchful eyes over things, but never shows his face when bad shit happen.
This article was aimed at people that are dubious and maybe help a few of them open their minds and remove the blindfold completely! I never intended to turn a christian into an atheist. That is not what I'm trying to do. If I did that, I wouldn't be any better than any other mindless religions out there.
I can't prove the big bang theory how it all came to happen just as you cannot prove god. The difference ? I don't give two shits about the big bang theory. I'm alive right now and wether it's proven or not, i'm still living. You on the other hand, if god is proven non existent by some genuis who manages to prove how the big bang theory became to be, all your world would crumble around you because suddenly, all the belief that you built up all your life, suddenly is non existent.
You chose your life to be locked around religion and god and when that crumbles, your life goes down with it. Suddently youre alone, not knowing what to do coz all these years were guided to one goal, Heaven. And suddenly heaven has been taken off the menu. It's one thing when you discard a toy, and it's another when the toy is taken away from you!
I think for myself, not someone else's brain!
K, you stated that what you believe is closer to that of Punk than Metal... Jumping to the conclusion that you therefor listen to at least some punk is not an unreasonable assumption to make after a statement like that.
I never said you did have a hatred for God, I said your comment about punk got me thinking of Greg Graffin who I was in the middle of reading, it sparked a memory and I felt like sharing a fun little quote meant to be taken in humor (which I believe I even said in an attempt to not be misunderstood again.)
And I don't think I have a superiority complex about my religion. If I have any kind of superiority complex (Which I don't think I do) it is in the realm of academia, not religion. If I'm having a discourse debate or whatever you want to call it with an atheist who actually knows what he's talking about, I genuinely respect his/her views. I may not agree with them but I'll likely respect them.
Also, I have more than that one goal... my goal is not only getting to heaven, it is creating a heaven here on earth among other things. If God is ever disproved (as highly unlikely as I think that is) I will still have all my friends, I will still have lived a healthy enjoyable life, I will still be able to work towards creating a place that feels like what heaven might have felt like and creating a place that my descendants can be proud of. I truly believe that what the Bible tries to teach is how to live a healthy enjoyable life, so even if God is suddenly no longer in the equation I will still be well prepared to enjoy the rest of my life just as I have been and will continue to.
And you're right, reading a book does not mean I can think for myself. Reading a book, putting it in conversation with other books and authors, theologians and philosophers, critically analyzing what points made and which of those points make sense in comparison to what others have said over time. Critical Analysis and Critical thinking is what mean you have the ability to think for yourself.
If I couldn't think for myself my faith would be the same today as it was when was before I moved away from home (it has changed greatly from that day). My belief would also mirror that of my profs, and since they don't all come from the same religion that seems unlikely.
To me the mark of not being able to think for oneself is the unwillingness to even consider another's view. If you prefer to be trapped in a bubble of unexplored atheism, so be it. But I had gotten the impression that knowledge is important to you... is that not why you feel the world would be better off without religion? (and I'm legitimately asking here, because I'm unsure on that question) because if it is the reason and you're refusing to to do any reading on the subject it's kind of sending mixed messages.
Also random note, I was discussing this with my Atheist friend and without telling him anything about your background or anything you have said about yourself. Just telling him the points you have been trying to make and how you've been trying to make them. Within his first guess he pretty much had your background, the type of music you listen to and the type of people you seem to be surrounded by. Now if you were really thinking for yourself would it have been that easy for my friend to guess all of that without batting an eye? (say no if you want, that's more or less just a point I wanted you to think about.)
Now before you get all riled up and just start ranting feverishly in yet another response, please read over this again and make sure you understand exactly what it is I am saying. I cannot count how many times in this debate I have had to explain myself because there's been some kind of misunderstanding on your end or make the same point multiple times because the point I was trying to make somehow didn't register the first few times.
Hey Zama, I don't mean to be rude and intrude in your conversation with Necro, but I really feel the need to say something here.
I just want to clarify that the country that we both live in (Necro and I) have antiquated ideologies of Christian religion, where the upbringing of many of us has included occurences of forced belief. Every school here imposes the teachings of Christianity (whether we like it or not). If we doubt the existance of Jesus Christ, we would often be punished or ridiculed. So I just want you to have a clearer picture of the supression we were put under as children.
It is quite a natural progress for open-minded people to think outside the box, and question everything. I was sent to a Christian school run by nuns and lecturers with theology degrees, nevertheless, the idea of their religion just didn't seem right for me.
Just to make it clear, by the way, I am agnostic. I do not 100% doubt that there is a superior being , however I refuse to worship one without a fair amount of solid reasoning and proof. I am not against any religions, In fact I think it encourages socio-diversity and control, which is great. Call me hard headed, call me whatever you like, It's just the way I think.
Also, the notion that the music we listen to has had an effect on our religious beliefs is ridiculous (we do not listen to any sort of punk at all btw). We are and will always be music-lovers at heart metal is just one of the many genres of music we adore. We both play instruments, and have a healthy musical knowledge. By the way, have you forgotten that a sub-genre of metal is White Metal? That is the equivalent of a christian form of metal?
The idea that punk=atheism, or metal=satanism or whatever else people tend to group music with is a closed-minded assumption, in my opinion. I believe that you can only associate music with different emotions, anyway I don't want to go off-topic.
And I just had to ask, What did you have in mind when you said you want to create heaven on Earth? Enlighten me on how you wish to achieve that, I'd really like to know.
"And I don't think I have a superiority complex about my religion"...that's exactly the kind of thing people that have a superiority complex would say. They don't even know they have one. You see yourself as this highly educated christian but for someone as educated as you, you certainly make a lot of false assumptions.
This is the last time I'm going to tell you, get off your high horse, and don't come here with your theological babble judging me without even knowing me. And tell your friend also not to judge me because neither you, nor him know anything about me. All you know is what you picked up in these "few" words in this rather annoying and pointless debate.
"If God is ever disproved (as highly unlikely as I think that is) I will still have all my friends, I will still have lived a healthy enjoyable life" ... Good for you, I've got that too without being disillusioned about a fictional character someone decided force feed you. Yes you tweaked your beliefs how you wanted growing up and with your studies, but the root of it all is flawed in the first place. God does not exist, never did, never will be. You chose to believe in something out of a fairy book called the bible. I chose not to.
The music I listen to (Which by the way is much more broad than you would probably even dream about) has nothing to do with how I think and to use that both you and your friend as an argument for my lack of belief is simply retarded...especially for someone of your such high education!
Im sorry, both you and your friend have it incorrectly. 95% of the people I'm "surrounded" with, live a christian life, they are open-minded and accepting of my choice. Lol, and without even knowing that, what do you really know about me? Not much. In your head you assumed I'm probably some sort of ignorant person that's just going with the trend. Well, I can assure you I am well-educated, I have a great job and I live a good life. So, don't even think you're slightly superior than me, in any way.
Now I'm really tired of posting on this pointless debate. You keep repeating yourself. I chose to live my life based on what I can see, feel, touch and prove. I gave you my views why the illusion of god is stupid and why i hate the church as an institution and the whole idea of having a religion. Have a good life with the delusions of a mindless robot and I'll enjoy mine too.
Necro:
See, this is why I asked you to re-read my post, because once again you have taken everything I was trying to say and either twisted it or completely missed the point.
a) I admitted that there's a potential I could have a superiority complex in regards to Academia, I never outright said "Nope, I ain't got one" I merely said there area in which you think I have one may be slightly off.
b) I have never judged you once. I have made assumptions yes, but never judged. That's not something I think I have the right to do.
c) Now for someone who gets riled up so easily when I make assumptions you sure make a lot of your own. For one thing assuming that my musical tastes are minuscule in comparison to yours (I have about 180GB of music on my desktop alone, that much music gets pretty diverse pretty fast I have everything from Cannibal Corpse to Iron and Wine on it, and literally everything in between.)
d) "I'm 28, and i was baptized (at Age 0 of course against my will). I live in a 99% Christian country where these scam-artists have their hand in everything. I was raised Roman Catholic..." that's more or less what I was referring to. My friend guessed all of this about your background and again I NEVER said that meant anything, I just said it was something to think about. I made no assumptions there, I simple took what you gave me as factual (and if it wasn't that was your fault not mine).
e) I was not force fed my religion. next to pacifism the other defining characteristic of Mennonites is you don't get baptised until you are ready. By that I mean it is not forced upon you, you make the decision as to whether you believe and are ready for baptism, no one else.
f) I'm sorry you have found this debate pointless, I know I've been learning a lot about what people like you think and how they think it (Which is valuable in and of itself). It would have been nice to get a better idea of what it is you believe (or since you seem to hate that word so much, what it is that makes up your world view). And for the record I was never trying to convert you or anyone else, I merely wanted to offer some understanding and gain some for myself. Had you not been to resilient to the idea this debate may have been something very different.
If I don't hear from you again I wish you well.
Hannah:
I couldn't agree more, music does not always influence our beliefs. I never meant to say that it did but if I somewhere came across that way just let me say that I never meant to. When I was referring to metal it was more based on people I knew and what sort of thought process it leads to (not religion, lets be clear here when I say thought process I mean the way in which one processes information) which I think the kinds of music you listen to can influence that. (and no, I have not forgotten about White Metal, although I kind of have issues with the Christian music scene).
Also I'd just like to say all theology degree's are not the same, the school you goto really plays a role in what you will be taught (example: a prof who applied to teach at one of our rival schools was denied a job because he didn't believe in the 7-day creation. Our school on the other hand teaches evolution in our biology classes, so even within a few kilometers of each other certain things can influence very different viewpoints within a degree.)
I thank you for trying to clear things up for me. I'll try to do the same here in response to your question.
I'm not 100% sure what heaven on earth will look like but I think it starts with us striving for a peaceful earth wherein all nations can co-exist peacefully and without violence. I doubt I'll see that in this lifetime but hopefully by working towards that some day it will become a reality. As for what we do after that... well we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
Hope that helped, and I'd love to carry on this discussion with you if you're up for it (since it sounds like Necro has taken his hat out of the ring). Because by the sounds of it you are actually interested in the sorts of things I believe and not just in attacking them. Hopefully we can both get a better understanding of where each of us are coming from (assuming, again, that you are up for a little discussion)
If I seemed to you that I'm getting pissed off or somewhat annoyed, I can assure you that I'm not.
Having 180gb of music on your PC, doesn't give you a better knowledge of music than myself. I also have music from the likes of Richard Wagner to Brodequin to Gorgoroth to Phantom of the Opera. Having 180gb proves only one thing, you practice stealing more than me :)
The debate didn't start pointless at all, I was actually enjoying it until you started name dropping like a bookworm. No, I'm not a theology major, and bible studies was never in my curriculum, however I know whats in it.
Fine, your religion baptizes people when they want, if they want. Great job, that's one thing your religion finally got it right...sure took it's sweet time though.
I did learn a lot as well however this debate if it served nothing, it reinforced my belief that religion is intolerant to other beliefs.
And since you asked for my world views, here it is. The world we live in is a sick place, poverty, murder, rape...i could keep going forever. If you think that will ever change, or if you think the world will become unite, you're living a sad lie. As long as money is involved, nations and people will be divided.
I don't see God, Religion, Christianity, Jews, Muslims,Atheists,Satanists or anyone else fixing it. It is each and everyone of us that have to make our own little community as livable as possible but that doesn't change reality outside our bubble.
The church preaches honesty, yet it's more corrupt than the mafia. It preaches tolerance yet it has done more unthinkable things than the Nazis. It preaches peace, yet it has killed more people throughout history than any terrorist group, murderer and natural accident combined.
I chose to live my life without association to any religion simply because I believe that at the end, It's what I do in my life time that determines if I'm a good person or not...NOT Religion!
ZaMa, you're just as guilty as necro for hearing what you want to. This post is for exactly that, discussing religious beliefs. What I'm referring to is the things people say outside of this thread, in the "real world". I agree with Hannah in that religion does provide a good moral framework, it's not necessary for that end, sadly more parents don't teach their children good morals unless it comes in the nice neat little prepackaged bundle called christianity. In my opinion, Catholics are the most guilty of forcing their beliefs. I cannot speak for any other division of christianity. Coincidentally, catholics are also one of the worst when it comes to fear tactics. Yes, I was raised catholic. Yes, I am bitter about this as well, as I never had a choice either.
I just wanted to express my opinion about christianity's inherent alienation of non-christian people. I personally don't think anyone's personal view of reality and a higher power can be lumped into any specific organized religion. It seems like most people who label themselves as being part of a particular ethos just want to feel like they belong to something, regardless of whether or not they truly subscribe to that religion's definition of "god". I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion about that specifically.
K, Never did I say it did give me a better view of music than you I just said don't assume that because your musical spectrum is diverse that mine isn't the same. (And I have very specific views on music piracy, if you're interested in them I'd love to share but don't call me a thief just because I have lots of music... And I'm also pretty sure I own over 40GB of that music, but that's unimportant)
I'm sorry if name dropping puts you off, I'm used to debating with my friends who all have done far more reading that me (by comparison to them I am hardly even a book worm at all.) But in all fairness a good half of my name dropping weren't even Christian authors, they were atheists whom I figured you might be interested in. Mainly because I think it's important to know where what you believe in comes from, who has influence your belief process and why it is important to think in the way that you do. If you don't share that joy in history I'll try to stop name dropping, but it has almost become second nature to me now so forgive me if i slip up.
Also I don't know how I have re-enforced your idea of intolerance. Throughout this entire debate I have been trying to understand you and what you believe, that is not something that intolerance by definition would allow. I've researched numerous differing religions. I've been in a Hindu temple and a Buddhist temple to name a few and have worshiped along side both of them. I try to be tolerant of all faiths so if I have come across as otherwise, I do apologize.
Now if you don't see us fixing those problems so be it, I still have a bit more faith in mankind. In my lifetime alone I have seen the church go from hating homosexuals to allowing them to worship along side us and accepting them as equals. That in itself is a huge step to make towards creating a peaceful planet. (and just to remind you, My Church is not the Roman Catholic Church, although I think certain sects of Catholicism have started accepting homosexuals into the congregation.)
And that is a good world view to hold. What you do with your time here on earth is very important. It is also one I kind of hold myself (tweaked slightly in regards to my religion as I'm sure you guessed). I could explain it here but that would require more name dropping and bible references which I get the impression you're not the biggest fan of.
Kevy:
Sorry, I did not see your post there. But here's my opinion on what I think you're asking me. The reason I feel people group themselves into a specific belief construct whether or not they think of themselves to share their views is for a sense of community. A lot of Christian denominations these days are trying to focus on this idea of community. For example there are two Anglican churches in my region that are drawing in a lot of Mennonites and Anabaptists, not because of what they believe but because that's where their friends are all going and so since they feel this fellowship towards these people they join them when they goto church. Another reason I feel is tradition and people like this idea of carrying on traditions that their ancestors were likely part of. It just this idea of history that people feel a drawn towards. I'm sure there are thousand of different reasons as to why people do this, but those are the main reasons why people in my area have been doing it.
That's pretty much what I thought. It's too bad that people can't celebrate their religious diversity without being criticized. But then again, diversity isn't always a good thing either culturally. I think I'd prefer to be left out of organized religion for the reason I stated, but at the same time I am also guilty of excluding myself from society for the most part for the same reason and it's not always the best thing either. So I hope you'll join me in a hearty "to each his own". Good luck to you in your spiritual journey, I hope that you find your answers, if there are indeed any to be found. Just try not to force your answers on others, they are yours alone. Besides, it's the journey that counts, as they say.
Just a note, these people don't go to the two Anglican churches because they'll be criticized if they don't but rather because they feel that what they are looking for will be more present there than at the church they are currently attending. And for the record I generally only offer my religious input if I am prompted (or if I find myself in a theology based debate), but I prefer to show my faith through my actions. In the words of Menno Simons "Show your faith every day, and use words if necessary." But yes, I will join you in a heart "to each his own" which is kind of how I figured this would end right from the get go. Best of luck to you as well.
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